(Mwata Kazembe chef coutumier en Zambie
confirme que Moise Katumbi est son neveu ... )
Wednesday, March 07, 2007
Katumbi is my nephew, like it or not - Kazembe
By George Chellah
Wednesday March 07, 2007 [02:00] MOSES Katumbi is my nephew whether people like it or not, Mwata Kazembe of the Lunda people of Luapula province has said. In an interview on Monday, Mwata Kazembe, who was reluctant to discuss the matter, said Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) Katanga Province governor Moses Katumbi was his blood relation and nobody could change that fact.
"You know I usually don't like giving my thoughts on cases of corruption because most of those people involved are my relatives. People like Chiluba, he is my son from here. So if I talk about that some people might think I am biased that's why I don't like talking about it," Mwata Kazembe said. "But for Katumbi, Katumbi is my nephew and nobody can change that whether people like it or not, Katumbi is my blood relation. He is my nephew." When asked whether he has attempted to advise his nephew to come back and answer the corruption charges he is currently facing in Zambia, Mwata Kazembe responded: "Katumbi has been willing to come back to Zambia on condition that he should be put under house arrest and not to take him in jail... to Chimbokaila," Mwata Kazembe said. "So if the powers that be can meet those conditions, Katumbi is willing and can return to Zambia even tomorrow."Last week in parliament, Vice-President Rupiah Banda said authorities would question Katumbi if he visits Zambia. And on complaints by losing MMD Mwansabombwe parliamentary candidate Maybin Mubanga that he (was intimidating witnesses in the Mwansabombwe petition, Mwata Kazembe denied the allegations. "I don't know what is wrong with Mubanga. I can't intimidate his witnesses and I will never do that. I understand how bitter Mubanga is for having lost an election but I will never intimidate his witnesses. I understand the law better than Mubanga himself,” Mwata Kazembe said. "In fact, I am even on record of encouraging him to go to court so that we can settle this matter once and for all. People should learn to accept defeat honourably. These people... the MPs are just passing birds, they come and go that's why our current MP is Chitonge for now. Mubanga can come and contest in 2011 if he wants." He advised Mubanga to use his money properly and not on costly activities like he was doing. He also advised him to be respectful. "Even the person he is saying that I was intimidating, Mubanga doesn't live with us here so who told him that? Let him give you the number of that same person I intimidated so that you can get exactly what happened from the person herself," Mwata Kazembe said. "This person came all the way from her place to come and provoke me at the palace. I even told her that you people are embarrassing me... in fact, I was going to cane her because she just came to provoke me. "As for Mubanga, I am the Mwata and he is my subject and let him accept that."But Mubanga said Mwata Kazembe was threatening witnesses in his petition case, where he has asked the High Court to nullify the election of Samuel Chitonge. And Mwansabombwe PF member of parliament Samuel Chitonge advised Mubanga not to draw the Mwata in his petty politics. "Mr Mubanga has petitioned so what else does he want? Let him just wait for the courts to determine the matter. He should even have respect for the Mwata because that sort of behaviour is the highest level of insolence," Chitonge said.
"You know I usually don't like giving my thoughts on cases of corruption because most of those people involved are my relatives. People like Chiluba, he is my son from here. So if I talk about that some people might think I am biased that's why I don't like talking about it," Mwata Kazembe said. "But for Katumbi, Katumbi is my nephew and nobody can change that whether people like it or not, Katumbi is my blood relation. He is my nephew." When asked whether he has attempted to advise his nephew to come back and answer the corruption charges he is currently facing in Zambia, Mwata Kazembe responded: "Katumbi has been willing to come back to Zambia on condition that he should be put under house arrest and not to take him in jail... to Chimbokaila," Mwata Kazembe said. "So if the powers that be can meet those conditions, Katumbi is willing and can return to Zambia even tomorrow."Last week in parliament, Vice-President Rupiah Banda said authorities would question Katumbi if he visits Zambia. And on complaints by losing MMD Mwansabombwe parliamentary candidate Maybin Mubanga that he (was intimidating witnesses in the Mwansabombwe petition, Mwata Kazembe denied the allegations. "I don't know what is wrong with Mubanga. I can't intimidate his witnesses and I will never do that. I understand how bitter Mubanga is for having lost an election but I will never intimidate his witnesses. I understand the law better than Mubanga himself,” Mwata Kazembe said. "In fact, I am even on record of encouraging him to go to court so that we can settle this matter once and for all. People should learn to accept defeat honourably. These people... the MPs are just passing birds, they come and go that's why our current MP is Chitonge for now. Mubanga can come and contest in 2011 if he wants." He advised Mubanga to use his money properly and not on costly activities like he was doing. He also advised him to be respectful. "Even the person he is saying that I was intimidating, Mubanga doesn't live with us here so who told him that? Let him give you the number of that same person I intimidated so that you can get exactly what happened from the person herself," Mwata Kazembe said. "This person came all the way from her place to come and provoke me at the palace. I even told her that you people are embarrassing me... in fact, I was going to cane her because she just came to provoke me. "As for Mubanga, I am the Mwata and he is my subject and let him accept that."But Mubanga said Mwata Kazembe was threatening witnesses in his petition case, where he has asked the High Court to nullify the election of Samuel Chitonge. And Mwansabombwe PF member of parliament Samuel Chitonge advised Mubanga not to draw the Mwata in his petty politics. "Mr Mubanga has petitioned so what else does he want? Let him just wait for the courts to determine the matter. He should even have respect for the Mwata because that sort of behaviour is the highest level of insolence," Chitonge said.
posted by MrK @ 6:24 AM
Traduction de l’interview de Katumbi publié le dimanche 25 février 2007
De Story and pictures, par Webster Malido
« J’ai été forcé par le peuple à faire de la politique »
« Et après, je vais prendre ma retraite et retourner à mes affaires. Je ferais des affaires. Je ne suis pas un politicien, je ne suis pas né politicien. J’ai été forcé par le peuple de m’engager en politique. C’est différent. On ne m’a pas appelé par une personne pour que je m’engage en politique, non. C’est tout le peuple du Katanga ». Il dit qu’il était le dernier candidat parlementaire à remplir sa fiche de candidature dans ses documents de nomination parce qu’il n’était pas prêt à s’engager dans la politique, mais il a cédé à la pression du peuple.
Maintenant qu’il a été élu gouverneur de la province du Katanga, riche en minerais, Katumbi dit qu’il a beaucoup de travail devant lui. Il promet de changer les choses dans les cinq années à venir : « Vous verrez le Katanga dans cinq ans. Ce sera la petite Afrique du Sud. Regardez nous faire » il souligne « Parce qu’en Zambie, il y avait déjà la démocratie. Au Congo il n’y a pas eu d’élection libre. En Zambie vous avez presque quatre fois plus de liberté »
Katumbi dit que même s’il y a quelques incompréhensions entre les autorités zambiennes et lui, il est important de noter la proximité des relations qu’entretiennent les populations zambiennes et congolaises. Il dit qu’il est important de ne pas créer d’inimitié entre les deux pays : « Parce que, vous voyez, le Congo et la Zambie, sont deux pays sœurs. Je ne veux pas créer de problème au Congo ou en Zambie. Il y a beaucoup de zambiens qi travaillent avec moi ici, parce que ce sont mes frères ».
Il insiste sur le fait que bien qu’il doive des réponses au Task Force on Corruption ( groupe de travail pour la corruption)en Zambie, sur certaines affaires, il ira en Zambie en tant que gouverneur de la province du Katanga en RDC. Ci-dessous il raconte entre autre son parcours du monde des affaires à la politique, dont ses projets pour la province du Katanga.
Question : Bien, nous pouvons commencer l’interview. Pour commencer, peut être que vous pouvez nous expliquer… une chose que les gens se demande, comment se fait-il que vous êtes gouverneur maintenant (en RDC) lorsqu’en Zambie vous êtes considéré tel qu’un criminel, enfin, quelqu’un qui a volé…
Réponse : A kabolala (voleur) ?
Q : Ouais, oui…
A : (éclats de rires) Merci beaucoup. Vous savez, premièrement pour aller et voler, il faudrait briser le coffre-fort ou faire quelque chose de contestable. J’étais en Zambie, j’avais un contrat, et je vendais de la farine de maïs. Par les médias, il y a eu un peu de publicité, il y a eu un contrat, et avec un peu de chance il y a des personnes qui faisaient ce même boulot, ils sont toujours vivants en Zambie, comme l’Honorable Eric Silwamba, Honorable Vernon, VJ, même le Président Mwanawasa. Pendant que tu fais ton boulot, tu achètes la farine de maïs à l’Olympic, pardon, en Zambie, même à Luanshya à Lusaka, à K32,000 et tu le revends à K15,000. A cause des élections les prix ont augmenté et tout le monde le dans le MMD. Vous savez si vous êtes chrétien vous devriez dire la vérité. Il y a un contrat, ils n’ont rien… Le gouvernement Zambien me doit cet argent. Je respecte le gouvernement zambien, je respecte le peule zambien. Si j’étais… Si j’avais volé en Zambie, ma famille était en Zambie. Pourquoi est-ce qu’ils ne sont pas allés les tuer ? Parce que les gens connaissaient la vérité. Aujourd’hui je fais pareil ici au Congo avec la farine de maïs, le petit déjeuner vaut K10,000. Le poisson, le pain, j’ai laissé le pain, en Zambie à K4,000. Aujourd’hui ‘ai entendu dire qu’il était passé à K15,000 ou K16,000. Au Congo aujourd’hui le pain est à K5,000. Qui est-ce qui aidait le peuple ?
Q : Vous avez continué à approvisionné le Congo en poisson ?
A : Oui j’ai continué à les approvisionner. Qui aidait le peuple ? Aujourd’hui je construis des hôpitaux. En Zambie j’ai essayé d’aider les universités, j’ai aidé beaucoup de gens. Les gens connaissent la vérité. Si aujourd’hui je devQais me présenter aux élections en Zambie contre ce gars de la présidence du Task Force, Max Nkole… Je le battrais.
Q : Etais tu congolais lorsque tu es arrivé en Zambie ?
A : Cette question vous devriez la poser au Mwata (le vieux chef Mwata Kazembe). Le Mwata est mon oncle du côté de ma mère. Vous savez, de la province de Luapula…
Q : Le Mwata actuel ?
A : Même l’ancien Mwata. C’est la même famille. La famille Chinvanta. Il y a beaucoup de zambiens qui sont nés ici, il y a beaucoup de congolais qui sont nés en Zambie. Vous comprenez ? Alors ces gens veulent dire des choses qui les arrangent. Les quatre années restantes ne sont rien dans un gouvernement. Le Président Chiluba a eu 10 ans, les dix ans sont terminés. Je pense qu’il est temps qu’ils travaillent à une réconciliation avec le peuple, parce qu’ils seront rattrapés par le temps, cela doit se faire en quatre ans. « Imilandu taibola » (litéralement : les affaires ne terminent/disparaissent pas), c’est ce que disent les bembas.
Q : Donc, la question de savoir si vous étiez…
A : Je suis entré en Zambie initialement avec une autorisation d’investissement, d’où j’ai acheté ma chambre froide et tout. Vous comprenez ? Et j’avais mon permis. En ce moment-là j’avais quelques problèmes avec le gouvernement congolais. Je n’avais pas de passeport. En Zambie on m’a donné un passeport provisoire que j’ai abandonné après avoir récupéré mon passeport congolais. Et ma mère m’a dit que je pouvais aller au consulat zambien à Lubumbashi et à partir de ce moment le traitement que j’ai reçu m’a poussé à me dire, non je vais récupérer ma nationalité congolaise. Maintenant j’ai ma nationalité congolaise.
Q : Et vous êtes dans le gouvernement ?
A : Je suis dans le gouvernement. Je suis dans le gouvernement, dirigeant dix millions de personnes dans le Katanga
Q : C’est presque la même taille que la Zambie ?
A : C’est la même taille que la Zambie
Q : Et c’est l’une des provinces la plus en RDC ?
A : Au monde, la plus riche province du monde. Vous devriez le mentionner, c’est pour cela que je suis respecté par le gouvernement zambien, je n’ai rien contre le gouvernement zambien. E problème est avec la cour de justice. Je n’ai rien d’autre à dire. Mais je veux juste ajouter, ils disent « non, Moise est un escroc ». Le peuple connaîtra la vérité. Mr Rupia Banda dit « s’il vient en Zambie, vous l’arrêtez ». Pourquoi refusent-ils que je vienne en Zambie si j’avais tué quelqu’un, si j’avais volé, ils doivent me laisser venir librement.
Q : Mais la Task Force dit que vous devez répondre à certaines de ces questions
A : (En montrant la copie d’un journal avec quelques charges retenues contre lui par la Task Force) C’est de la foutaise. Pour la Task Force, je veux… Je pense que vous avez toujours votre journal. J’ai un enregistrement du chef de la Task Force, où ils disent avoir saisi des émeraudes valant des millions de dollars. Je trouve mes émeraudes en Inde, mon émeraude en Inde, chez le gars qui me les a vendus. J’avais une émeraude qui vaut $15 million USD.
Ils sont partis, ils ont brisé la serrure de la National Bank (Banque Nationale Commerciale de la Zambie). Si j’étais un escroc, est-ce que je suis supposé les garder à la banque ? Je suis supposé les garder, comme les autres. Je les ai apportés au tribunal parce que je n’étais pas un escroc. J’avais une émeraude valant $15 million USD et le porte-parole de la Task Force a dit « Nous avons saisi des émeraudes valant des millions de dollars ». Je savais que mes émeraudes valaient entre $15 million USD et $20 million USD. Ce que je demande aujourd’hui, si les parlementaires veulent savoir qui dit la vérité et qui est-ce qui est un escroc, ils devraient prendre mes émeraudes et créer une commission avec les membres du parlement pour vendre aux enchères mes émeraudes qui valent des millions, parce qu’ils ont tout volé, ils n’avaient pas d’ordonnance du tribunal avant d’aller saisir mon émeraude. Et depuis je veux que le Parlement garde mon argent… Parce que cette affaire est en cour de justice maintenant. Comment est-ce que vous pouvez vous retrouver au tribunal ?
Mon avocat, celui qui fut mon avocat, si la Task Force travaille très bien, Mutembo Nchito, MNB, était mon avocat. C’est le gars qui me traduit en justice aujourd’hui. C’est ce que vous appelez la loi ? Je ne suis pas avocat, je n’ai pas fait l’école de Droit. Ton avocat ne peut pas te traduire en justice. Il est supposé défendre tes intérêts. Vous comprenez ? Tous les contrats que j’ai signés avec le gouvernement, tous les contrats sont passés par mes avocats. Je n’ai pas été forcer des coffres. J’ai du respect, je ne veux pas dire n’importe quoi. Je veux juste dire que nous devons nous respecter les uns les autres. Et le gars de la Task Force, s’il n’a aucun élément, il devrait attendre les tribunaux.
Q : Vous êtes en train de dire que vous respectezla procédure de la Cour ?
A : Je respecte la procédure de la Cour
Q : Ils disent que vous devriez alors suivre la procédure et répondre à ces questions.
A : Non, je l’ai déjà fait… Qui est-ce qui retarde la procédure ? Depuis cinq ans la Task Force retarde la procédure. J’ai un avocat là-bas, parce que je ne suis pas une personne… Ils ne veulent pas que je retourne en Zambie. Même Rupiah Banda l’a dit. Aujourd’hui ils disent une chose, le lendemain matin ils en disent une autre. J’ai mes avocats là-bas. Ils vont au tribunal, reporté, reporté. Depuis six ans l’affaire est reporté. Je n’ai aucun problème avec le gouvernement. Du moins l’argent que la Task Force perçoit en salaire, lorsqu’ils vont à Londres, peu importe quand ils y vont, ils utilisent l’argent du peuple Zambien.
Ils devraient regarder combien ils ont dépensé et combien ils ont récupéré jusqu’ici et ils devraient aller expliquer au tribunal « Nous avons récupéré autant, et nous le remettons au Trésor public Zambien avec les frais ». Parce que il y a de la transparence. Dans quatre ans le nouveau président qui va venir va dire voyons. Personne ne va se voiler la face. Donc ils devraient jouer… honnêtement, je ne peux pas remplacer le gouvernement Zambien, je ne peux pas travailler à la place de la Task Force ou des tribunaux. L’affaire est en Cour de justice. Je n’ai rien.
Q : Vous respectez la procédure de la Cour ?
A : Je respecte la procédure, je ne vous en parle pas à la télé. Parce que vous voyez, le Congo et la Zambie sont des pays sœurs. Je ne veux pas créer de problèmes en Zambie ou en créer au Congo. Il y a beaucoup de zambiens qui travaillent avec moi ici, parce que ce sont mes frères. Peut-être que le chauffeur qui est venu te chercher est un zambien. Je respecte tout le monde. J’irai en Zambie, ils doivent faire très attention, tu ne dois pas te faire des ennemis.
Q : Allez-vous toujours, en tant que gouverneur du Katanga, venir en Zambie ?
A : Je viendrai. Je viendrai, je demanderai au gouvernement zambien. Je n’ai pas à le demander à la Task Force, ce n’est pas la Task Force qui dirige le pays.
Q : Mais c’est le Vice-président qui a dit que vous seriez arrêté.
A : Même si c’est le Vice-président. En Zambie il y a un président. C’est pourquoi il y a un président, le Président Mwanawasa. Si le Président Mwanamwasa me dit « Moise ne vient pas », je ne viens pas. C’est le président. Le Vice-président, demain Mwanamwasa peut nommer un autre Vice-président. Combien de Vice-président a changé ? Si Mr Rupiah Banda n’a rien à donner au peuple zambien, il devrait juste se taire.
Q : Et le Ministre des Affaires Etrangère a dit quelque chose du genre qu’il ne veut pas compromettre la relation entre les deux pays…
A : Ouais. Vous savez s’il y a quelqu’un de sensé, c’est le Ministre des Affaires Etrangères, Mr Sikatana. Son discours était très bien, il est responsable. Un homme comme lui est responsable. Premièrement c’est un avocat, il sait de quoi il parle. Il sait, c’est un avocat, il y a un problème à la Cour.
Q : Donc vous êtes en train de dire que le problème entre la Task Force et vous est beaucoup plus petit face à la relation entre les deux pays ?
A : Il n’y a rien même. Ces accusations, je dois y répondre au tribunal. Il n’y a rien. Si je peux vous dire, il y avait une embrouille entre les hommes d’affaires zambiens et moi-même. Si j’étais un escroc, je vendais de la farine de maïs à K15,000, vous le savez. Lors des premières élections nous vendions à peu près K35,000, le poisson, je le vendais à combien ? Aujourd’hui, après que j’ai quitté la Zambie, le prix du poisson a augmenté de 400 pourcent. Parce que moi je mange du nshima, je mange du poisson. Et la farine de maïs a doublé. Je passais les commandes du gouvernement, il n’y a rien. Qu’est-ce qu’il a parlé des choses qu’il ne connait pas ? Mon argent pour les émeraudes, mon investissement en Zambie vaut plus que ce qu’il clame. Toutes ces choses ils les ont volés, ils ont volé les compresseurs des réfrigérateurs, ils ont tout volé. Vous en tant que journaliste pouvez-vous aller visiter toutes mes propriétés, à quoi elles ressemblent aujourd’hui ?Parce que lorsque je viendrai, si la Cour dit que j’ai perdu, le tribunal va décider.
Q : Vous ne dites pas être au-dessus de la loi ?
A : Je ne suis pas au-dessus de la loi. Pourquoi je devrais être au-dessus de la loi ? Personne n’est au-dessus de la loi. Suivons l’affaire au tribunal, suivons la procédure. Si ce gars a besoin d’argent à dépenser, pour voyager encore, ce Mr Nkole, il doit aller dire des foutaises aux journaux ? Non, la loi est là. La Task Force n’est pas au-dessus de la loi. C’est pour ça qu’il y a la Cour Suprême, la Haute Cour, il y a des juges en Zambie. Pourquoi le Président Mwanawasa lui-même ne dit rien, parce qu’il est avocat ? Il le sait.
Q : Peut-être qu’on a déjà répondu à ce problème adéquatement. On peut passer à d’autres choses. Pouvez-vous juste nous expliquer comment vous êtes arrivé en politique ici et qu’est-ce qui vous a motivé ?
A : Vous savez, vous l’avez vu vous-même lorsque je suis revenu d’exil. Le peuple congolais, lorsque j’étais ici, mon père faisait beaucoup d’œuvres sociales. La maison que nous habitons ici maintenant, j’ai tout hérité, vous pouvez vous renseigner au sujet de la richesse de ma famille, ça ne date pas d’aujourd’hui. Mon père était un homme d’affaire, mon frère, ma famille est une grande famille au Congo. Ils parlent de $20 millions USD et ça et ça. Qu’est-ce que $10 million USD ou $20 million USD ? C’est quoi ?
Je vais vendre ma crédibilité pour $1million USD ou $10 million USD ? Peut-être même pas $2 millions USD ? Alors lorsque je suis arrivé au Congo, vous l’avez vu vous-même sur CFI, comment est-ce que j’ai été accueilli, plus d’un million de personnes. Vous pensez que si j’étais un escroc ils seraient venus m’accueillir comme ça ? Non. Et je ne voulais pas me présenter en politique. J’étais dans les affaires. Durant les trois ans, cinq ans que j’ai passé au Congo, je ne vais pas vous mentir, j’ai réalisé d’énormes profits. Peut-être $300 millions USD ou $400 millions USD de profits.
Q : Mais une fois de plus, j’ai entendu des critiques ici sur la façon dont vous vous êtes impliqué dans les affaires, vous avez fait des choses contestables, particulièrement vos investissements dans le cuivre.
A : Maintenant, si j’ai fait quelque chose de contestable, pensez-vous que le peuple va voter pour moi en tant que numéro un, dans tout le pays ? Je l’étais au niveau national, au niveau provincial, j’étais aussi numéro un dans tout le pays. En tant que gouverneur j’étais numéro un.
Q : Vous êtes une haute personnalité élue du parlement ?
A : Oui. Donc les gens disent que le peuple congolais est stupide d’avoir voté un escroc ?
Q : Ouais.
A : Non, je vous le demande.
Q : Je me le demande aussi
A : Et je n’ai pas de mine de cuivre, je n’ai pas de mine de cuivre. J’ai des fourneaux pour la production du cuivre. Je ne possède aucune mine. J’achète aux artisans miniers, ils me les vendent et j’ai des grands contrats avec des grandes mines, je m’en suis bien sorti, beaucoup de profits.
Q : Vous disiez que vous faites des profits, au-delà des $300 millions USD aujourd’hui ?
A : Au-delà des $300 millions USD aujourd’hui. Je perdais mon temps. Vous savez, si vous n’êtes pas une mauvaise personne, Dieu vient toujours en aide aux bonnes personnes. Vous savez si j’étais une mauvaise personne, Dieu ne m’aurait pas dû m’aider, il aurait dû me punir, ou même punir mes enfants, vous comprenez ? Je suis élu, ici. Pensez-vous que les gens… Désolé (il répond à un appel téléphonique). Donc si j’étais un escroc, dans une seule ville j’ai obtenu les votes de presque 25 candidats à la présidentielle.
Q : D’autres diront que peut-être que vous avez usé de vos richesses ?
A : Quelle richesse ?
Q : Les plus de $300 millions USD ou $400 millions USD ?
A : Non. Combien de personnes sont riches en Zambie, ils ne donnent pas au peuple ? Non, je vous demande. Combien de personnes il y a en Zambie ? Même au Congo ils ne font pas ça. Je construis des hôpitaux, je construis des écoles. Je ne voulais même pas me présenter. Vous pouvez demander à n’importe qui, les gens sont venus dormir ici pendant trois jours pour que je me présente. J’ai refusé.
Q : En quelle année avez-vous joint la politique ?
A : J’ai oint la politique l’année dernière. Non. En juillet (2006), je ne le savais même pas avant l’élection. J’étais le dernier membre du parlement à introduire mon dossier, je ne voulais même pas me rendre à l’intérieur. J’étais le dernier membre du parlement dans tout le pays à présenter à candidature à cause de la pression du peuple. Le dernier membre à avoir rempli sa fiche, c’était moi.
Q : Et vous avez obtenu le plus grand nombre de votes
A : De tout le pays. La première tu peux te dire d’accord j’ai utilisé mon argent, la deuxième fois encore, la troisième fois encore. Je n’ai pas été élu dans la brousse, j’ai été élu en ville. Tu peux dire « il a été dans la brousse corrompre les gens, leurs donner des engrais, il a fait ceci et cela ».
Q : Vous vous êtes présenté dans quel parti ?
A : Lubumbashi, là où vous êtes assis avec moi ici.
Q : Quel parti ?
A : Le PPRD de Joseph Kabila, le parti du Président.
Q : Les gens disent que vous êtes assez proche du Président ?
A : Je dois être proche de mon Président. Si tu es du parti, tu dois en être proche, si tu es MMD tu dois être proche du Président. Dites-moi dans quel pays si tu es dans le parti, le parti présidentiel, tu n’es pas proche du Président. Donc tu n’es pas du parti. Je pense que les gens doivent regardez les progrès en Zambie, les progrès au Congo, la relation, comment les zambiens vont faire une bonne harmonie. Comment le Congo va s’élever, comment la Zambie va s’élever. Nous devrions nous concentrer sur ce point.
Q : Je vois que vous êtes passionné par la Zambie, avez-vous gardé des relations avec les personnes comme l’ancien président Chiluba ?
A : Oui, je parle au président Chiluba, je parle même aux ministres de Mwanawasa. Je parle à beaucoup de gens.
Q : Vous parlez aussi à l’ancien chef des services Xavier Chungu ?
A : Quand Xavier était en Europe, il m’appelait. Je parle aussi aux ministres de Mwanawasa. Je parlais même au gens qui étaient au MMD.
Q : Jusqu’à présent vous leurs parlez ?
A : Jusqu’à présent et je ne comprends pas pourquoi ces gens de la Task Force font du bruit. J’ai toujours du respect pour le peuple zambien, le pays où j’ai vécu pendant longtemps. Je ne dois pas dire aujourd’hui « non, je suis un superman ». Non. Personne n’est super.
Q : En ce qui concerne vos ambitions, en ce qui concerne les projets que vous pensez aideront le peuple du Katanga… J’ai vu l’état des rues, c’est pauvre…
A : Nous venons juste d’avoir les élections. Regardez le Katanga dans cinq ans. Ça va être la petite Afrique du Sud. Regardez-nous. Parce qu’en Zambie il y avait déjà la démocratie. Au Congo il n’y pas eu d’élection libre. En Zambie vous avez maintenant presque quatre fois plus de liberté.
Q : Aspirez-vous à un plus grand poste politique ?
A : Non. Vous savez je ne voulais pas entrer en politique. Je ferais les cinq ans pour entretenir le Katanga, la maintenir en tant que la plus grande province de toute l’Afrique. Et après je vais prendre ma retraite et retourner à mes affaires. Je ferais les affaires. Je ne suis pas un politicien, je ne suis pas né politicien. J’ai été forcé par le peuple d’entrer en politique. C’est différent. On ne m’a pas appelé par une personne pour que je me présente en politique, non. Tout le peuple du Katanga
Q : Alors comment gérez-vous les affaires et la politique ?
A : J’ai démissionné de ma compagnie parce que je déclare tous mes revenus, tout, toutes mes propriétés, tout a été déclaré. Alors je vais être gouverneur pendant peut-être trois ans, cinq ans, jusqu’à la fin de mon mandat si je travaille bien et après je retournerais à mes affaires. J’étais meilleur aux affaires, maintenant depuis que je dois changer…
Q : Je suppose que vous avez aussi démissionné de votre poste dans l’équipe locale de football TP Mazembe ?
A : Non, je ne démissionne pas. Il n’y a pas de, pas de…
Q : Il n’y a pas de compromis ?
A : Il n’y a pas de compromis. Je reste. Le Premier Ministre Berlusconi (ancien premier ministre d’Italie) est resté. C’est une passion pour moi. C’est un hobby, TP Mazembe.
Q : Et votre équipe se porte toujours bien ?
A : Non, on essaie, nous faisons de notre mieux. Vous savez, pour vous dire, je n’ai pas, je ne peux voir aucun problème avec, même aucune haine envers le peuple zambien. Mon équipe va là-bas pour s’entraîner. C’est leurs pays. Le peuple zambien peut venir ici aussi. Combien de fois vous organisez des matchs avec Kalusha Bwalya ici ? Plusieurs fois.
L’équipe nationale, leurs joueurs viennent ici. Je les recevais, on dînait ensemble dans ma maison. Ce sont mes frères. Et vous verrez lorsque j’irai en Zambie, les femmes du marché, tout le monde là-bas, ça va être un chaos total.
Q : Juste pour célébrer votre retour ?
A : Lorsque je reviendrai, vous verrez.
Q : Et vous dites que dès que le Président vous donne…
A : Non, il y a deux gouvernements, ils vont parler. Le Président Mwanawasa a un gouvernement, le Président Kabila a un gouvernement. Si le Président Mwanawasa dit « non, je ne veux pas de toi », je ferais ce que dit le président. C’est lui le chef du pays.
Q : Je vais maintenant vous demander de nous parler brièvement de vous, dites-nous qui vous êtes.
A : Ce que je peux vous dire maintenant c’est que je suis le gouverneur de la grande province, une des plus grandes provinces au Congo. Elle est peuplée de presque 10 millions de personnes. Ce dont nous avons besoin c’est de bonnes relations avec tous les pays voisins et nous lançons un appel à tous les investisseurs de venir investir dans notre province. Même les zambiens, certains me vendent du maïs provenant des réserves de nourriture. Je ne refuse pas car ce sont des zambiens, ce sont mes frères. J’ai acheté la semaine dernière plus de 2000 tonnes de maïs de Zambie.
Pourquoi ils n’ont pas refusé mon argent, Donc ce sont des problèmes politiques, et j’ai du respect pour le Président Mwanawasa, Président Chiluba, tout le monde, même le Président Kaunda. Vous savez dans cinq ans il y aura un nouveau président. Le Président Mwanawasa n’a jamais rien dit de mal à mon sujet, même à la télé, même au Parlement, rien. J’ai du respect pour lui.
Q : Evidemment les lecteurs voudraient savoir si le gouverneur du Katanga est un homme attaché à la famille
A : Oui, je suis attaché à la famille.
Q : Avec des enfants et une épouse ?
A : Oui, j’ai des enfants, et je ne suis plus célibataire maintenant.
Q : Vous n’êtes plus célibataire maintenant ? vous êtes marié ?
A : Je suis marié
Q : Mais la dernière fois que je suis venu je pensais que vous étiez célibataire.
A : Non, ma femme était en Europe
Q : Maintenant elle est revenue ?
A : Oui, elle est de retour, ouais. Ce que je peux dire, c’est que les gens en Zambie doivent prier et prier pour la vérité. Vous comprenez ? Parce qu’aujourd’hui mes avocats se sont ligués contre moi, la prochaine fois, ils seront arrêtés parce que j’ai es factures, j’ai tout. Je les payais de l’argent. Aujourd’hui ils me renient ? Vous savez qu’ils ont renié Jésus Christ ? C’est ce qu’ils font.
Q : Rien d’autre que j’aurais pu laisser de côté lors de mes questions que vous souhaiteriez rajouter ?
A : Non, je vous souhaite une bonne année, même si ce n’est pas le bon moment, ce n’est pas trop tard. Je souhaite le meilleur au peuple zambien. Que Dieu bénisse la Zambie, que Dieu bénisse le gouvernement de Zambie, que Dieu bénisse tout le monde.
Q : Et vous reviendrez bientôt ?
A : Je viendrais en Zambie et le meilleur jugement que vous aurez est le meilleur jugement de Dieu. C’est le plus important. Je crois en Dieu, je suis chrétien. Vous savez certaines personnes qui ont trahi Chiluba, ils trahiront aussi le Président Mwanawasa. La vie est comme ça. Merci beaucoup.
Q : Je vous en prie, merci beaucoup.
Sunday, February 25, 2007
People forced me into politics - Katumbi
By Story and pictures by Webster Malido
Sunday February 25, 2007 [02:00]
I WAS forced by the people to join politics, says recently elected Democratic Republic of Congo's Katanga Province governor, Moses Katumbi. In an interview from his Lubumbashi residence in the DRC last Sunday, Katumbi says he is not a politician per se. "You know I didn't want to enter in politics. I will do in five years to maintain Katanga, to keep it as a big province in all Africa," says Katumbi. "And after, I will retire back in my business. I will do business, I am not a politician. I was not born a politician. I was forced by the people to enter in politics. It's different. They didn't call me by one person to stand in politics, no. All the people of Katanga." He says he was the last parliamentary candidate to file in his nomination papers because he was not ready to join politics but he gave in because of pressure from the people.
Katumbi says now that he has been elected governor of the mineral-rich Katanga Province, there is a lot of work ahead. He promises to turn things around in the next five years. "You watch Katanga in five years. It's going to be the smallest South Africa. You watch us," he stresses. "Because in Zambia there was already democracy. In Congo there had not been a free election. In Zambia you've got almost four times now free."
Katumbi says although there is a misunderstanding between him and Zambian authorities, it is important to note the close relations between Zambians and the people of the DRC. He says it is important not to create enmity between the two countries. "Because, you see, Congo and Zambia, they are sister countries. I don't want to create problems in Zambia or create problems in Congo. There is many Zambians working with me here because they are my brothers," says Katumbi.
He insists that although the Task Force on Corruption in Zambia says he has to answer some questions over some cases, he is going to come to Zambia as governor of Katanga Province. Before he left Zambia in 2002, Katumbi was well-known for his Chani Fisheries and Tamba Bashila businesses. He has been on the Task Force on Corruption's wanted list since then. Recently, he was elected governor of Katanga Province in the DRC. Below, he discusses, among many other issues, his path from business to politics, including his plans for Katanga Province.
Question: Okay, we can start the interview. Basically, maybe you can just explain to us... one thing people have been asking about is that how come you are governor now (in the DRC) when in Zambia you are considered a criminal, so to say, someone who stole...
Answer: A kabolala (thief)?
Q: Yeah, yes...
A: (Bursts into laughter). Thank you very much. You know, first to go and steal you should go and break the safe or to do something dubious. I was in Zambia, I had a contract and I was selling the maize meal. Through the media, there was some adverts, there was a contract and lucky enough there is some people which was in the same jobs, they are still alive in Zambia like Honourable Eric Silwamba, Honourable Vernon, VJ, even President Mwanawasa. The time you are doing the job you are buying the maize meal at Olympic, sorry in Zambia, even in Luanshya, in Lusaka at K32,000 and you are selling at K15,000 because of the elections because the price went up and everyone knows about that in the MMD. You know if you are Christian you should say the truth. And there is contract, there is nothing...The Zambian government owes me the money. I respect the Zambian government, I respect the people of Zambia. If I was...I had stolen in Zambia, my family was in Zambia. Why they didn't go and kill them? Because the people knew the truth. I was there helping the people. I am here today the maize meal in Congo, breakfast is K10,000. Fish, bream, I left bream in Zambia at K4,000. Today I heard it's about K15,000 or K16,000. Today the bream in Congo is K5,000. Who was helping the people?
Q: You have continued to supply fish in Congo?
A: I continued to supply. Who was helping the people? Today I am building hospitals. In Zambia I tried to help universities, I helped a lot of people. The people know the truth. If today, even if I stand in Zambia with some, that guy Task Force chairman Max Nkole from the Task Force saying...I will win beat him.
Q: You would win the elections?
A: I will win the elections. You see, I respect...I don't want people to say what they have to say...
Q: Maybe before we proceed, when you came to Zambia, what was your status? Where you a resident or...?
A: The time I came in Zambia, themselves they say I am the Congolese businessman. You answered the question. They said the fugitive, the Congolese businessman, they give me sort of, a lot of names.
Q: Were you Congolese when you came to Zambia?
A: That question you should ask the Mwata (Lunda senior chief Mwata Kazembe). The Mwata is my uncle. The Mwata Kazembe is my uncle on my mum's side. You know Luapula Province...
Q: The current Mwata?
A: Even the old Mwata. It's just the same family, the Chinyanta family. There is plenty Zambians born here, there is plenty Congolese born in Zambia. You understand? So these people want to say what arranged them. Four years remaining is nothing in government. President Chiluba had ten years, the ten years is finished. I think this time they have to work about a reconciliation with the people because time will catch those people also in four year's time. Imilandu taibola (literally, cases do not end/disappear), that's what the Bembas say.
Q: So that question of whether you were...
A: I entered first in Zambia with investment licence where I brought my cold room, everything. You understand? And I had my permit. The time I had some problems with the Congolese government. I didn't have a passport. They gave me a temporary passport in Zambia which I left after I got back my Congolese passport. And my mum declares, you can go in the Zambian consulate in Lubumbashi and from that time, the treatment they gave me I say no let me get back my Congolese nationality. Now I have got my Congolese nationality.
Q: And you are in government?
A: I am in government. I am in government ruling ten million people in Katanga.
Q: It's almost the same size with Zambia?
A: It's same size with Zambia.
Q: And it's one of the richest provinces in the DRC?
A: In the world, the richest province in the world. You should mention that. That's why I have got respect with the Zambian government, I don't have anything against the Zambian government. The problem is in court, I don't have anything to say. But I just want to say, they say, 'no, Moses is a crook'. People will know the truth. Mr Rupiah Banda say 'if he arrives in Zambia, you arrest him'. Why they are refusing me to come to Zambia if I have killed somebody, if I have stolen, they have to leave me come freely.
Q: But the Task Force says you have to answer to some of these questions.
A: (Pointing to a printed newspaper copy with some of the Task Force charges against him) Now, this is rubbish. About the Task Force, I want to... I think you've got still your newspaper. I have got the tape by the Task Force leader where they are saying they have seized emeralds worth millions of dollars. I find my emeralds in India, my emerald in India to the guy where they sold the emerald. I had emerald worth US$15 million.
They went, they broke the lock in the National Bank (Zambia National Commercial Bank). If I was a crook, I am supposed to keep the emerald in the bank? I am supposed to keep it like the others. I went to take it to court because I was not a crook. I had emerald worth US$15 million and the spokesman for the Task Force said 'we have seized emeralds worth millions of dollars'. I knew my emeralds were between US$15 million or US$20 million. What I am asking today, if the people in Parliament want to know who is saying the truth, who is a crook, they should get my emerald and create a commission by the members of parliament to do an auction sale of my emeralds worth millions of dollars because they have stolen everything, they didn't have a court order before they went to take my emerald. And I want the Parliament to keep my money until...because the matter is in court. How can you be in court...?
My lawyer, who was my lawyer, if the Task Force is working very well, Mutembo Nchito, MNB was my lawyer. He is the guy who is taking me in court today. That's what you call the law? I am not a lawyer, I didn't do law at school. Your lawyer can't take you (to court). He is supposed to declare interest. You understand? All the contracts I sign with government, all the contract was going through my lawyers. I didn't go and break coffers. I've got respect, I don't want to say anything. I just want to say we have to respect each other. And the guy for Task Force if he doesn't have any facts, he should wait for the courts.
Q: So you are saying you respect the court process?
A: I respect the court process.
Q: But then they are saying that you should avail yourself and answer these questions.
A: No, I already...who is postponing in court? Five years, the Task Force is postponing. I've got a lawyer there because I am a person not...they don't want me to go back in Zambia. Even Rupiah Banda said. Today they are saying this, in the next morning they are saying other things. I've got my lawyers there. They go to court, postpone, postpone. For six years, postponing the matter. I don't have any problem with the government. At least the money the Task Force are getting in salary where they are going in London whatever they are going they are using Zambian people's money.
They should see how much they have spent and how much they have recovered so far and they should go in court to explain 'we have recovered so much which we put in the Zambian coffers and the expenditure'. Because there is transparency. In four years, the new president who is going to come is going to say let's see. Nobody is going to hide the figure. So they should play...honestly, I can't replace the Zambian government, I can't work on the pace of the Task Force or the courts. The matter is in court. I don't have anything.
Q: You respect the court process?
A: I respect the process, not going you talk on TV. Because you see, Congo and Zambia, they are sister countries. I don't want to create problems in Zambia or create problems in Congo. There is many Zambians working with me here because they are my brothers. Maybe the driver who came to pick you up is a Zambian. I respect everyone. I will go in Zambia. They have to be very careful, you don't have to create enemies.
Q: So are you still, as governor of Katanga, going to come to Zambia?
A: I will come. I will come, I will ask the Zambian government. I don't have to ask the Task Force, it's not the Task Force leading the country.
Q: But it's the Vice-President who said you will be arrested.
A: Even if it's the Vice-President. In Zambia, there is a President. That's why there is a President who is President Mwanawasa. If President Mwanawasa told me, Moses don't come, I don't come. It's the President. The Vice-President, tomorrow Mwanawasa can nominate another Vice-President. How many vice-presidents President Mwanawasa has changed? If Mr Rupiah Banda doesn't have anything to give to the Zambian people, he just has to keep quiet.
Q: And the Minister of Foreign Affairs said something like he doesn't want to compromise the relationship between the two countries...
A: Yeah. You know somebody who's got sense is the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr Sikatana. His speech was very good, he is responsible. A man like him is responsible. First, he is a lawyer, he knows what he is talking about. He knows, he is a lawyer, there is a problem in court.
Q: So are you saying that this issue about you and the Task Force is much smaller than the relationship of the two countries?
A: There is even nothing. Those accusations I have to answer them in court. There is nothing. If I can tell you, there was a fight between the businessmen in Zambia and myself. If I was a crook, I was selling maize meal at K15,000, you know about it. The first election we were selling about K35,000, fish I was selling at which price? Today, after I left Zambia, the price of fish has increased by 400 percent. Because me I eat nshima, I eat fish. And maize meal is doubled. I was doing the order of the government, there is nothing. What is it that he is talking things he doesn't know about? My money for the emeralds, my investment in Zambia is worth more than what he is claiming. All those things they have stolen, they have stolen compressors for the fridge, they have stolen everything. You as Post, can you go and visit all my place, how they look today. Because the time I will come, if the court say I lose, the court is going to decide.
Q: You are not saying that you are above the law?
A: I am not above the law. Why can I be above the law? Nobody is above the law, nobody is above the law. Let's follow the matter in court, let's follow the procedure. If this guy needs some money to spend, to travel again, this Mr Nkole, he has to go and talk in the newspaper rubbish? No, the law is there. It's not above the law, the Task Force. That's why there is the Supreme Court, the High Court, there is judges in Zambia. Why President Mwanawasa himself is not saying, because he is a lawyer? He knows about it.
Q: Maybe that issue has been adequately answered. We can move to other issues. Will you just explain to us how you entered politics here and what motivated you to get into politics?
A: You know, you saw it yourself the time I came back from exile. The Congolose people, the time I was here my father was doing plenty in the social things. The house where we are staying here I got everything, you can ask about the wealth of my family, it's not today. My father was a businessman, my brother, my family is a big family in Congo. What they talking about, US$20 million what and what. What is US$10 million or US$20 million? What is it?
I am going to sell my credibility for US$1 million or US$10 million? Maybe not even for US$1 billion. So, the time I came in Congo, you saw it, I think yourself on CFI how they welcomed me, over one million people. If I was a crook, do you think these people are supposed to come and welcome me. No. And I didn't want to stand in politics, I was in business. In the three years I have done in Congo, five years in Congo, I can't lie to you, I have done huge profits. Maybe US$300 or US$400 million in profit.
Q: But again, I have heard some of your critics say that even the way you have been involved in businesses here, you have done things dubiously, especially your investments in copper.
A: Now, if I have done something dubiously, do you think the people are going to vote me as number one, in all the country? I was on the national level, on provincial level I was also number one in the country. As governor, I was number one.
Q: You are the highly elected member of parliament?
A: Yes. Then people are saying the Congolese people are foolish to go and elect a crook?
Q: Yeah.
A: No, I am asking you.
Q: I am also wondering.
A: And I don't have any copper mine. I don't have any copper mine. I have got furnaces for producing copper. I don't own any mine. I buy from the artisan miners, they sell to me and I've got big contracts with big mines and I did good, good profits.
Q: You were saying you are doing profits of over US$300 million today?
A: Over US$300 million today. I was wasting my time. You know if you are not bad, God helps always the right people. If I was a bad person, God wasn't supposed to help me, he is supposed to punish me, even to punish my children. You understand? I am here, elected. Do you think people today... Sorry (Answers incoming call). So if I was a crook, in just one town I had votes for almost 25 presidential candidates, the election I had.
Q: Others would say maybe you used your wealth?
A: Which wealth?
Q: The over US$300 million or US$400 million?
A: No. How many people have got wealth in Zambia, they don't give to the people? No, I am asking you. How many people they are in Zambia? Even in Congo they don't do this. I built hospitals, I built schools. I didn't want even to stand. You can ask even anyone, people came to sleep here for three days, to ask me to stand. I refused.
By Story and pictures by Webster Malido
Sunday February 25, 2007 [02:00]
I WAS forced by the people to join politics, says recently elected Democratic Republic of Congo's Katanga Province governor, Moses Katumbi. In an interview from his Lubumbashi residence in the DRC last Sunday, Katumbi says he is not a politician per se. "You know I didn't want to enter in politics. I will do in five years to maintain Katanga, to keep it as a big province in all Africa," says Katumbi. "And after, I will retire back in my business. I will do business, I am not a politician. I was not born a politician. I was forced by the people to enter in politics. It's different. They didn't call me by one person to stand in politics, no. All the people of Katanga." He says he was the last parliamentary candidate to file in his nomination papers because he was not ready to join politics but he gave in because of pressure from the people.
Katumbi says now that he has been elected governor of the mineral-rich Katanga Province, there is a lot of work ahead. He promises to turn things around in the next five years. "You watch Katanga in five years. It's going to be the smallest South Africa. You watch us," he stresses. "Because in Zambia there was already democracy. In Congo there had not been a free election. In Zambia you've got almost four times now free."
Katumbi says although there is a misunderstanding between him and Zambian authorities, it is important to note the close relations between Zambians and the people of the DRC. He says it is important not to create enmity between the two countries. "Because, you see, Congo and Zambia, they are sister countries. I don't want to create problems in Zambia or create problems in Congo. There is many Zambians working with me here because they are my brothers," says Katumbi.
He insists that although the Task Force on Corruption in Zambia says he has to answer some questions over some cases, he is going to come to Zambia as governor of Katanga Province. Before he left Zambia in 2002, Katumbi was well-known for his Chani Fisheries and Tamba Bashila businesses. He has been on the Task Force on Corruption's wanted list since then. Recently, he was elected governor of Katanga Province in the DRC. Below, he discusses, among many other issues, his path from business to politics, including his plans for Katanga Province.
Question: Okay, we can start the interview. Basically, maybe you can just explain to us... one thing people have been asking about is that how come you are governor now (in the DRC) when in Zambia you are considered a criminal, so to say, someone who stole...
Answer: A kabolala (thief)?
Q: Yeah, yes...
A: (Bursts into laughter). Thank you very much. You know, first to go and steal you should go and break the safe or to do something dubious. I was in Zambia, I had a contract and I was selling the maize meal. Through the media, there was some adverts, there was a contract and lucky enough there is some people which was in the same jobs, they are still alive in Zambia like Honourable Eric Silwamba, Honourable Vernon, VJ, even President Mwanawasa. The time you are doing the job you are buying the maize meal at Olympic, sorry in Zambia, even in Luanshya, in Lusaka at K32,000 and you are selling at K15,000 because of the elections because the price went up and everyone knows about that in the MMD. You know if you are Christian you should say the truth. And there is contract, there is nothing...The Zambian government owes me the money. I respect the Zambian government, I respect the people of Zambia. If I was...I had stolen in Zambia, my family was in Zambia. Why they didn't go and kill them? Because the people knew the truth. I was there helping the people. I am here today the maize meal in Congo, breakfast is K10,000. Fish, bream, I left bream in Zambia at K4,000. Today I heard it's about K15,000 or K16,000. Today the bream in Congo is K5,000. Who was helping the people?
Q: You have continued to supply fish in Congo?
A: I continued to supply. Who was helping the people? Today I am building hospitals. In Zambia I tried to help universities, I helped a lot of people. The people know the truth. If today, even if I stand in Zambia with some, that guy Task Force chairman Max Nkole from the Task Force saying...I will win beat him.
Q: You would win the elections?
A: I will win the elections. You see, I respect...I don't want people to say what they have to say...
Q: Maybe before we proceed, when you came to Zambia, what was your status? Where you a resident or...?
A: The time I came in Zambia, themselves they say I am the Congolese businessman. You answered the question. They said the fugitive, the Congolese businessman, they give me sort of, a lot of names.
Q: Were you Congolese when you came to Zambia?
A: That question you should ask the Mwata (Lunda senior chief Mwata Kazembe). The Mwata is my uncle. The Mwata Kazembe is my uncle on my mum's side. You know Luapula Province...
Q: The current Mwata?
A: Even the old Mwata. It's just the same family, the Chinyanta family. There is plenty Zambians born here, there is plenty Congolese born in Zambia. You understand? So these people want to say what arranged them. Four years remaining is nothing in government. President Chiluba had ten years, the ten years is finished. I think this time they have to work about a reconciliation with the people because time will catch those people also in four year's time. Imilandu taibola (literally, cases do not end/disappear), that's what the Bembas say.
Q: So that question of whether you were...
A: I entered first in Zambia with investment licence where I brought my cold room, everything. You understand? And I had my permit. The time I had some problems with the Congolese government. I didn't have a passport. They gave me a temporary passport in Zambia which I left after I got back my Congolese passport. And my mum declares, you can go in the Zambian consulate in Lubumbashi and from that time, the treatment they gave me I say no let me get back my Congolese nationality. Now I have got my Congolese nationality.
Q: And you are in government?
A: I am in government. I am in government ruling ten million people in Katanga.
Q: It's almost the same size with Zambia?
A: It's same size with Zambia.
Q: And it's one of the richest provinces in the DRC?
A: In the world, the richest province in the world. You should mention that. That's why I have got respect with the Zambian government, I don't have anything against the Zambian government. The problem is in court, I don't have anything to say. But I just want to say, they say, 'no, Moses is a crook'. People will know the truth. Mr Rupiah Banda say 'if he arrives in Zambia, you arrest him'. Why they are refusing me to come to Zambia if I have killed somebody, if I have stolen, they have to leave me come freely.
Q: But the Task Force says you have to answer to some of these questions.
A: (Pointing to a printed newspaper copy with some of the Task Force charges against him) Now, this is rubbish. About the Task Force, I want to... I think you've got still your newspaper. I have got the tape by the Task Force leader where they are saying they have seized emeralds worth millions of dollars. I find my emeralds in India, my emerald in India to the guy where they sold the emerald. I had emerald worth US$15 million.
They went, they broke the lock in the National Bank (Zambia National Commercial Bank). If I was a crook, I am supposed to keep the emerald in the bank? I am supposed to keep it like the others. I went to take it to court because I was not a crook. I had emerald worth US$15 million and the spokesman for the Task Force said 'we have seized emeralds worth millions of dollars'. I knew my emeralds were between US$15 million or US$20 million. What I am asking today, if the people in Parliament want to know who is saying the truth, who is a crook, they should get my emerald and create a commission by the members of parliament to do an auction sale of my emeralds worth millions of dollars because they have stolen everything, they didn't have a court order before they went to take my emerald. And I want the Parliament to keep my money until...because the matter is in court. How can you be in court...?
My lawyer, who was my lawyer, if the Task Force is working very well, Mutembo Nchito, MNB was my lawyer. He is the guy who is taking me in court today. That's what you call the law? I am not a lawyer, I didn't do law at school. Your lawyer can't take you (to court). He is supposed to declare interest. You understand? All the contracts I sign with government, all the contract was going through my lawyers. I didn't go and break coffers. I've got respect, I don't want to say anything. I just want to say we have to respect each other. And the guy for Task Force if he doesn't have any facts, he should wait for the courts.
Q: So you are saying you respect the court process?
A: I respect the court process.
Q: But then they are saying that you should avail yourself and answer these questions.
A: No, I already...who is postponing in court? Five years, the Task Force is postponing. I've got a lawyer there because I am a person not...they don't want me to go back in Zambia. Even Rupiah Banda said. Today they are saying this, in the next morning they are saying other things. I've got my lawyers there. They go to court, postpone, postpone. For six years, postponing the matter. I don't have any problem with the government. At least the money the Task Force are getting in salary where they are going in London whatever they are going they are using Zambian people's money.
They should see how much they have spent and how much they have recovered so far and they should go in court to explain 'we have recovered so much which we put in the Zambian coffers and the expenditure'. Because there is transparency. In four years, the new president who is going to come is going to say let's see. Nobody is going to hide the figure. So they should play...honestly, I can't replace the Zambian government, I can't work on the pace of the Task Force or the courts. The matter is in court. I don't have anything.
Q: You respect the court process?
A: I respect the process, not going you talk on TV. Because you see, Congo and Zambia, they are sister countries. I don't want to create problems in Zambia or create problems in Congo. There is many Zambians working with me here because they are my brothers. Maybe the driver who came to pick you up is a Zambian. I respect everyone. I will go in Zambia. They have to be very careful, you don't have to create enemies.
Q: So are you still, as governor of Katanga, going to come to Zambia?
A: I will come. I will come, I will ask the Zambian government. I don't have to ask the Task Force, it's not the Task Force leading the country.
Q: But it's the Vice-President who said you will be arrested.
A: Even if it's the Vice-President. In Zambia, there is a President. That's why there is a President who is President Mwanawasa. If President Mwanawasa told me, Moses don't come, I don't come. It's the President. The Vice-President, tomorrow Mwanawasa can nominate another Vice-President. How many vice-presidents President Mwanawasa has changed? If Mr Rupiah Banda doesn't have anything to give to the Zambian people, he just has to keep quiet.
Q: And the Minister of Foreign Affairs said something like he doesn't want to compromise the relationship between the two countries...
A: Yeah. You know somebody who's got sense is the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr Sikatana. His speech was very good, he is responsible. A man like him is responsible. First, he is a lawyer, he knows what he is talking about. He knows, he is a lawyer, there is a problem in court.
Q: So are you saying that this issue about you and the Task Force is much smaller than the relationship of the two countries?
A: There is even nothing. Those accusations I have to answer them in court. There is nothing. If I can tell you, there was a fight between the businessmen in Zambia and myself. If I was a crook, I was selling maize meal at K15,000, you know about it. The first election we were selling about K35,000, fish I was selling at which price? Today, after I left Zambia, the price of fish has increased by 400 percent. Because me I eat nshima, I eat fish. And maize meal is doubled. I was doing the order of the government, there is nothing. What is it that he is talking things he doesn't know about? My money for the emeralds, my investment in Zambia is worth more than what he is claiming. All those things they have stolen, they have stolen compressors for the fridge, they have stolen everything. You as Post, can you go and visit all my place, how they look today. Because the time I will come, if the court say I lose, the court is going to decide.
Q: You are not saying that you are above the law?
A: I am not above the law. Why can I be above the law? Nobody is above the law, nobody is above the law. Let's follow the matter in court, let's follow the procedure. If this guy needs some money to spend, to travel again, this Mr Nkole, he has to go and talk in the newspaper rubbish? No, the law is there. It's not above the law, the Task Force. That's why there is the Supreme Court, the High Court, there is judges in Zambia. Why President Mwanawasa himself is not saying, because he is a lawyer? He knows about it.
Q: Maybe that issue has been adequately answered. We can move to other issues. Will you just explain to us how you entered politics here and what motivated you to get into politics?
A: You know, you saw it yourself the time I came back from exile. The Congolose people, the time I was here my father was doing plenty in the social things. The house where we are staying here I got everything, you can ask about the wealth of my family, it's not today. My father was a businessman, my brother, my family is a big family in Congo. What they talking about, US$20 million what and what. What is US$10 million or US$20 million? What is it?
I am going to sell my credibility for US$1 million or US$10 million? Maybe not even for US$1 billion. So, the time I came in Congo, you saw it, I think yourself on CFI how they welcomed me, over one million people. If I was a crook, do you think these people are supposed to come and welcome me. No. And I didn't want to stand in politics, I was in business. In the three years I have done in Congo, five years in Congo, I can't lie to you, I have done huge profits. Maybe US$300 or US$400 million in profit.
Q: But again, I have heard some of your critics say that even the way you have been involved in businesses here, you have done things dubiously, especially your investments in copper.
A: Now, if I have done something dubiously, do you think the people are going to vote me as number one, in all the country? I was on the national level, on provincial level I was also number one in the country. As governor, I was number one.
Q: You are the highly elected member of parliament?
A: Yes. Then people are saying the Congolese people are foolish to go and elect a crook?
Q: Yeah.
A: No, I am asking you.
Q: I am also wondering.
A: And I don't have any copper mine. I don't have any copper mine. I have got furnaces for producing copper. I don't own any mine. I buy from the artisan miners, they sell to me and I've got big contracts with big mines and I did good, good profits.
Q: You were saying you are doing profits of over US$300 million today?
A: Over US$300 million today. I was wasting my time. You know if you are not bad, God helps always the right people. If I was a bad person, God wasn't supposed to help me, he is supposed to punish me, even to punish my children. You understand? I am here, elected. Do you think people today... Sorry (Answers incoming call). So if I was a crook, in just one town I had votes for almost 25 presidential candidates, the election I had.
Q: Others would say maybe you used your wealth?
A: Which wealth?
Q: The over US$300 million or US$400 million?
A: No. How many people have got wealth in Zambia, they don't give to the people? No, I am asking you. How many people they are in Zambia? Even in Congo they don't do this. I built hospitals, I built schools. I didn't want even to stand. You can ask even anyone, people came to sleep here for three days, to ask me to stand. I refused.
Q: Which year did you join politics?
A: I joined politics last year. No. In July (2006) I didn't even know before the election. I was the last member of parliament to introduce my paper because I didn't want to go inside. I was the last one in the country to stand as member of parliament because of the pressure of the people. The last man who filled his form was me.
Q: And you got the highest votes?
A: In the whole country. First time you can say okay maybe I used my money. Second time again, third time again. I was not elected in the bush, I was elected in town. You can say he went to the bush to corrupt people, give people fertiliser. He did what and what.
Q: Which party did you stand on?
A: Lubumbashi, where you are sitting with me here.
Q: Which party?
A: The Joseph Kabila's PPRD President's party.
Q: People say you are quite close to President Kabila?
A: I have to be close to my President. If you are in the party, you have to be close to, if you are MMD your have to be close to the President. Tell me, in which country if you are in that party, presidential party, you are not close to the president. Then you are not in the party.
I think people have to look on the progress of Zambia, on the progress of Congo, the relationship, how the Zambian people you are going to make that good harmony. How Congo is going to go up, how Zambia is going to go up. I think we have to concentrate on that one.
Q: I see you are passionate about Zambia. Do you still have contact with people like former president Chiluba?
A: Yes, I talk to president Chiluba, I talk even to ministers of Mwanawasa. I talk to plenty people.
Q: You talk to people like former intelligence chief Xavier Chungu also?
A: The time Xavier was in Europe, he was calling me. I talk also to the ministers of Mwanawasa. I was talking even to the people who was in the MMD.
Q: Up to now, you still talk to them?
A: Up to now, and I don't understand why these people of the Task Force are making noise. I still have got respect for the Zambian people, the country where I lived for a long time. I don't have today to say that 'no, I am a superman'. No. Nobody is super.
Q: In terms of your ambitions, in terms of the projects that you think would help the people of Katanga...I've seen the state of the roads, it's still poor...
A: We went through elections. You watch Katanga in five years. It's going to be the smallest South Africa. You watch us. Because in Zambia there was already democracy. In Congo there had not been a free election. In Zambia you've got almost four times now free.
Q: Do you aspire for any further position in politics?
A: No. You know I didn't want to enter in politics. I will do in five years to maintain Katanga, to keep it as a big province in all Africa. And after, I will retire back in my business. I will do business, I am not a politician. I was not born a politician. I was forced by the people to enter in politics. It's different. They didn't call me by one person to stand in politics, no. All the people of Katanga.
Q: So, how are you managing your business and politics?
A: I resigned from my company because I declare all my wealth, everything, all my properties, everything has been declared. So I am going to be a governor maybe for three years, five years, until I finish my term if I am working well and after I will go back in my business. I was better in business, now since I need to change...
Q: I guess you have also resigned from your local football team TP Mazembe?
A: No, I am not resigning. There is no, no...
Q: There is no compromise?
A: There is no compromise. I remain. The (former) prime minister (of Italy), Berlusconi, he remained. That is a passion for me. It's a hobbie, TP Mazembe.
Q: And your team is still doing fine?
A: No, we are trying, we are trying our best. You see, to tell you, I don't have, I can't see any problem even have any hatred against the Zambian people. My team goes there and train. It's their country. The Zambian people can come here also. How many times you organise games with Kalusha Bwalya here? Plenty times.
The national team, these players are coming here. I was receiving them, having dinner together with them at my house. They are my brothers. And you will see the time I will come in Zambia, the woman from the market, everyone there, it's going to be total chaos.
Q: Just celebrating your comeback?
A: When I've come back, you will see.
Q: And you are saying as soon as the President gives you...
A: No, there is the two governments, they will talk. President
Mwaanwasa has got a government, President Kabila has got a government. They will talk. If President Mwanawasa says 'no, I don't want you', I will follow what the President says. He is the boss of the country.
Q: My Katumbi, I will now ask you just to briefly tell us who you are.
A: What I can tell you is at the moment I am the governor of the big province, one of the biggest provinces in Congo. It's got almost ten million people. What we need is to have good relationships with all the neighbouring countries and we are calling all the investors to come and invest in our province.
Even the Zambian people, some are selling maize to me. They are selling maize to me from Food Reserve. I am not refusing because they are Zambian, they are my brothers. I bought last week over 2,000 tonnes of maize from Zambia.
Why they didn't refuse my money? So those are political issues and I've got respect for President Mwanawasa, president Chiluba, everyone, even president Kaunda. You know, in five years, there is going to be a new president. President Mwanawasa never said something bad about me, even on TV, even in Parliament, nothing. I've got respect for him.
Q: Of course the readers would want to know if the governor of Katanga is a family man.
A: I am a family man, yes.
Q: With children and a wife?
A: With children, I am not a single man now.
Q: You are not a single man now? You are married?
A: I am married.
Q: But last time I came I think you were single.
A: No, my wife was in Europe.
Q: Now she is back?
A: Yes, she is back, yeah. What I can tell you, people in Zambia have to pray and pray for truth. You understand? Because today my lawyers are against me, next time they are going to catch them because I've got the receipts, I've got everything. I was paying them money. Today they deny me? You know how they denied Jesus Christ? It's what they are doing.
Q: Anything else that I could have left out from my questions which you wish to say?
A: No, I wish you a good new year even if it's not, it's not late. All the best for the Zambian people. God bless the Zambia, God bless the government of Zambia. God bless everyone.
Q: And you will be coming soon?
A: I will come to Zambia and the best judgement you are going to have is the best judgment from God. That's which is important. I believe in God, I am a Christian. You know some people who betrayed Chiluba, they will betray also President Mwanawasa. Life is like that. Thank you very much.
Q: Most welcome, thank you very much.
Source : APARECO